OK, Listen Up. This Is Simple.

Phillip Blanchard · **Posted:** Wed Feb 19, 2003 5:33 am

When someone has a heart attack and dies while he's shoveling snow, it's not a "storm-related death," any more than a person who is blinded looking at a solar eclipse can blame the sun.
My favorite of the genre, perhaps apocryphal, is a guy who was electrocuted by lightning while installing a TV antenna on his roof during a thunderstorm.[ December 16, 2003: Message edited by: blanp ]

Phillip Blanchard · **Posted:** Wed Feb 19, 2003 5:38 am

Please add to "not storm-related deaths":A little girl in Montgomery County, Md., died after being overcome by carbon monoxide. "The girl's aunt had put her inside the running Honda to stay warm as she tried to shovel out the vehicle, not realizing its tailpipe was partially blocked by snow, Montgomery County police said."

catwoman · **Posted:** Wed Feb 19, 2003 4:10 pm

oh come on. weather conditions caused the situation in which the woman needed to shovel out the car, as well as the conditions under which the girl needed to be warmed... AND it was snow blocking the tailpipe.

gullyj · **Posted:** Wed Feb 19, 2003 4:19 pm

Without the storm the aunt would not be digging out the car and the tailpipe would not be jammed in the snow and the kid would not have died. So what was it? A 'person-related death?' What is, then, a storm-related death?
Not taking into account the impact of a storm on a person's activities sounds like the argument that guns don't kill, people do. The tagline on this thread appears to be deliberately provocative. It doesn't seem simple at all.

Karenna Awtry · **Posted:** Wed Feb 19, 2003 4:21 pm

I'm with catwoman on this one. Add to that the elderly man who died in his car Monday in Pennsylvania: "Among those killed was an 83-year-old .. man who sought shelter inside his parked car when his home heating system failed. Officials said he died either of hypothermia or carbon monoxide poisoning." -- APGranted, not all weather-related deaths truly are, but a blanket statement doesn't work in this situation.

rumymommy · **Joined:** Tue Aug 06, 2002 12:01 am **Posts:** 138

If it's hot and a kid goes swimming and drowns, it's not a heat-related death. If it's 100 degrees in the shade and some kid is running sprints in full football gear for three hours and dies of heat stroke, it isn't a heat-related death. Just because the weather creates the conditions for stupidity to thrive doesn't make it the cause of that stupidity. I agree a blanket statement is difficult to apply, but there is a measure of discretion. Every year there's a story about someone dying because they sat in a car with a tail pipe blocked by snow. Darwin would tell you it has little to do with the weather.[ February 19, 2003: Message edited by: 4Jfan ]

Phillip Blanchard · **Posted:** Wed Feb 19, 2003 5:22 pm

This is nothing new, yet it is for some reason one of the most difficult rules for people to grasp. If a hurricane blows away your house while you're inside it and you die, yours is a storm-related death.
If you have a heart attack and die while you're boarding up your windows, it is not.
The death of the little girl was at best a stupidity- related death but probably more like criminal negligence or manslaughter.

Phillip Blanchard · **Posted:** Wed Feb 19, 2003 5:25 pm

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by Kawtry:
I'm with catwoman on this one. Add to that the elderly man who died in his car Monday in Pennsylvania: "Among those killed was an 83-year-old .. man who sought shelter inside his parked car when his home heating system failed. Officials said he died either of hypothermia or carbon monoxide poisoning." -- AP<hr></blockquote>No. It doesn't necessarily follow that the man's furnace failed because of the storm.

catwoman · **Posted:** Wed Feb 19, 2003 5:29 pm

but if it wasn't COLD, none of that would have happened to the old man. none of the above people made the smartest of decisions, perhaps, but it doesn't follow that you only count the smart people who die amid bad weather.

Phillip Blanchard · **Posted:** Wed Feb 19, 2003 5:30 pm

From Testy Copy Editors in February 2002: In southern Illinois, a 3-year-old girl died when high water swept her from her grandmother's arms as the woman tried to cross a stream.
"Apparently, she thought it was too deep to drive through, so she attempted to carry (the girl) across," said Union County Sheriff Jim
Nash. (AP)***Which caused the little girl's death? The weather or her grandmother's jaw-dropping
stupidity?***

rumymommy · **Joined:** Tue Aug 06, 2002 12:01 am **Posts:** 138

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by catwoman:
but if it wasn't COLD, none of that would have happened to the old man. <hr></blockquote>
See my earlier examples.

Phillip Blanchard · **Posted:** Wed Feb 19, 2003 5:33 pm

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by catwoman:
but if it wasn't COLD, none of that would have happened to the old man. none of the above people made the smartest of decisions, perhaps, but it doesn't follow that you only count the smart people who die amid bad weather.<hr></blockquote>Not to beat a dead horse, but it's cold all winter, not just during snowstorms.[ February 19, 2003: Message edited by: blanp ]

SusanV · **Posted:** Wed Feb 19, 2003 5:45 pm

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by blanp:
No. It doesn't necessarily follow that the man's furnace failed because of the storm.<hr></blockquote>
We don't have the rest of that story. If the storm caused a power failure that took out the furnace, then it's storm related.And I'm in agreement with catwoman and canuck. How is a snow-shoveling-induced heart attack not storm related? No storm, no snow. No snow, no shoveling. No shoveling, no heart attack.

Craig Lancaster · **Posted:** Wed Feb 19, 2003 5:58 pm

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by SusanV:

No shoveling, no heart attack.<hr></blockquote>You sure about that?

Karenna Awtry · **Posted:** Wed Feb 19, 2003 7:10 pm

If one splits enough hairs, it's possible to pick apart any weather-related incident until it becomes a person-related incident.Driving in the snow, zero visibility, sheet of ice on the road, car loses traction and slides into tree ... well, the weather didn't MAKE the driver drive, the need for transportation did, so that would make it a, what, grocery-shopping-related incident?I think it's best to use common sense. 'Course, my common sense and your common sense are going to be completely different, aren't they ...

jmcg · **Posted:** Wed Feb 19, 2003 10:19 pm

Can we at least get blanp et al. to agree
that if the guy in Pennsylvania did indeed
die of hypothermia, it qualifies as a storm-related death?[ February 19, 2003: Message edited by: jmcg ]

Phillip Blanchard · **Posted:** Wed Feb 19, 2003 10:22 pm

[QUOTE]Originally posted by jmcg:
[QB]Can we at least get blanp et al. to agree
that if the guy in Pennsylvania did indeed
die of hypothermia, it qualifies as a storm-related death?Not necessarily.

tim · **Posted:** Wed Feb 19, 2003 10:26 pm

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by blanp:
Please add to "not storm-related deaths":A little girl in Montgomery County, Md., died after being overcome by carbon monoxide. "The girl's aunt had put her inside the running Honda to stay warm as she tried to shovel out the vehicle, not realizing its tailpipe was partially blocked by snow, Montgomery County police said."<hr></blockquote>It's one thing to say a death was related to the weather, which this one was, and quite another to say the death was caused by the weather, which this one was not.

gullyj · **Posted:** Wed Feb 19, 2003 10:47 pm

<blockquote>quote:<hr>If it's 100 degrees in the shade and some kid is running sprints in full football gear for three hours and dies of heat stroke, it isn't a heat-related death..... Every year there's a story about someone dying because they sat in a car with a tail pipe blocked by snow. Darwin would tell you it has little to do with the weather.<hr></blockquote>Let's try and make this simple: HEAT stroke outdoors only happens when it is HOT. The HOT temperature is caused by the WEATHER..... Darwin did not have to be a meteorologist to know that SNOW is a product of the WEATHER.

gullyj · **Posted:** Wed Feb 19, 2003 10:53 pm

<blockquote>quote:<hr> In southern Illinois, a 3-year-old girl died when high water swept her from her grandmother's arms as the woman tried to cross a stream.
"Apparently, she thought it was too deep to drive through, so she attempted to carry (the girl) across," said Union County Sheriff Jim
Nash. (AP)***Which caused the little girl's death? The weather or her grandmother's jaw-dropping
stupidity?***[/QB]<hr></blockquote>What caused the high water? A broken dam would not be weather-related. Lots of rain or warm-weather induced snow melt would be. Granted, stupidity is a factor but the stupid action would not have taken place had there not been flood conditions.
I welcome anyone who is hung up on weather-related connections to insert "death caused by stupidity" and see how far that gets.

pzicari · **Posted:** Wed Feb 19, 2003 10:55 pm

Considering the thread just above this one, I think you guys have just come up with a definitive argument for eliminating the DUI laws. Many, if not most, such accidents are caused either by excessive speed or a failure, for some reason, to negotiate a curve.
If we can't attribute deaths that involve snow to the snow, who's to say drinking had something to do with crashes?

aneye4detail · **Posted:** Wed Feb 19, 2003 10:56 pm

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by blanp:

The death of the little girl was at best a stupidity- related death but probably more like criminal negligence or manslaughter.<hr></blockquote>I don't see it as criminal at all. She was doing what she thought was best to protect her niece.

gullyj · **Posted:** Wed Feb 19, 2003 10:56 pm

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Not to beat a dead horse, but it's cold all winter, not just during snowstorms.
<hr></blockquote>No, it's not.

Phillip Blanchard · **Posted:** Wed Feb 19, 2003 11:16 pm

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by canuck:
No, it's not.<hr></blockquote>It is in Pennsylvania.

dmfugitive · **Posted:** Wed Feb 19, 2003 11:22 pm

All I know is that when I tear the head off that kid who shoveled his snow into the parking spaces I just spent 2 hours clearing, I expect the commonwealth's attorney to view it as a weather-related death.

gullyj · **Posted:** Thu Feb 20, 2003 8:47 pm

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by blanp:
It is in Pennsylvania.<hr></blockquote>You must think I'm some kind of chinook to believe that generalization. Last time I checked it was still winter here in southern Ontario where (today) the sun was shining and the temperature climbed above freezing which (at least by our standards and probably Pennsylvania's, too) we would describe as warm rather than cold.
As in: "Hey, nice and warm today, eh?" (Canadians are unable to hold any conversation without working in something about the weather.)

Dyslexic · **Posted:** Fri Feb 21, 2003 2:01 am

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by canuck:
You must think I'm some kind of chinook to believe that generalization. Last time I checked it was still winter here in southern Ontario where (today) the sun was shining and the temperature climbed above freezing which (at least by our standards and probably Pennsylvania's, too) we would describe as warm rather than cold.
As in: "Hey, nice and warm today, eh?" (Canadians are unable to hold any conversation without working in something about the weather.)<hr></blockquote>People can still die of hypothermia at temperatures above 0Â°C. Having said that, the point is irrelevant since storms do not cause cold weather. Cold weather contributes to storm conditions, but not all cold days are stormy.If John Doe, while seeking shelter on a rainy day, runs across the street without looking and gets hit by a car, is his death rain-related?

tim · **Posted:** Fri Feb 21, 2003 3:21 am

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by Dyslexic:
People can still die of hypothermia at temperatures above 0Â°C. Having said that, the point is irrelevant since storms do not cause cold weather. Cold weather contributes to storm conditions, but not all cold days are stormy.If John Doe, while seeking shelter on a rainy day, runs across the street without looking and gets hit by a car, is his death rain-related?<hr></blockquote>Poor John Doe's death (that guy can never seem to catch a break) would indeed be rain-related, although pointing it out adds nothing to a news story. I'm thinking there is still confusion here between a relationship and a cause.Speaking of dead, my guess is this thread is on its last legs.

Phillip Blanchard · **Posted:** Fri Feb 21, 2003 3:59 am

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by Tim Hathcock:
Speaking of dead, my guess is this thread is on its last legs.<hr></blockquote>I think you're right. I'll try again with the next snowstorm.

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